does anyone have a scan (or publication suggestion) for an illustrated chart in any of the wt publications that lays out the "appointed times of the nations"?
preferably one that highlights all the significant points, especially the 70 years and 1914, or even better, 1919.. thank you in advance..
Does anyone have a scan (or publication suggestion) for an illustrated chart in any of the WT publications that lays out the "Appointed Times of the Nations"? Preferably one that highlights all the significant points, especially the 70 years and 1914, or even better, 1919.
Thank you in advance.
where do i start?
i suppose with "me".
i am mid 20's, born in and live abroad with my wife, "serving" in a foreign language congregation.
Welcome. I am 3rd generation and my wife is 4th. We're still in but making our move out. It has taken time and a full range of emotions. You are not alone, you will find both support and information here. Take your time and investigate the scriptures for yourself. For me, it was a 2 year process of investigation, both of the bible and what the Society really is. Now, I am at peace. As for me personally, I still believe in God but not religious institutions.
70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
The JW Scholar is guilty of scholastic dishonesty, or is just parroting the Society's dishonesty in the Appendix of the Let Your Kingdom Come book.
I think my previous post on Jeremiah and the Society's own statement stands on it's own. However, it really grinds me when people say that Josephus advocated 70 years of desolation.
The Society uses this quote from Josephus:
“Furthermore, Josephus elsewhere describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians and then says that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years." (Antiquities of the Jews X, ix, 7) Hepointedly states that ‘our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus.’” (Against Apion I, 19) – Let Your Kingdom Come, 1981, italics the Society’s
Reading this paragraph seems to prove the 70 years of desolation. However, the Society italicized the word “desolate”. This distracts from the word “during” used by Cyrus. This is critical because the statement of Josephus does not directly prove that the city and temple were destroyed 70 years before the Jews release by Cyrus. It merely says these things happened during a 70 year period.
Just semantics?
Conspicuously absent from the Society’s examination is the following; in the same writing of Josephus, a few paragraphs later, he specifically addresses the temple in Jerusalem:
“These accounts agree with the true history in our books [the Hebrew Scriptures]; for in them it is written that Nebuchadnezzar, in the nineteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state for fifty years ; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus, its foundations were laid and it was finished again in the second year of Darius.” - Against Apion I, 21
So, 70 - 50 = 20. There's your 20 year discrepancy. Josephus, the Bible, and secular chronology are all in agreement.
having trouble w/ images.
please delete & i'll repost.. .
2009 - "since 1925, jehovah's witnesses have recognized that world war i and the events that followed amount to sure evidence that christ's presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914" (w.09, 3/15, p.16).
Ok. I have the images worked out. What the Society's angle is on bringing up 1925 I do not know. But here are the relevant scans from the "famous" Birth of the Nation article.
having trouble w/ images.
please delete & i'll repost.. .
2009 - "since 1925, jehovah's witnesses have recognized that world war i and the events that followed amount to sure evidence that christ's presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914" (w.09, 3/15, p.16).
HAVING TROUBLE W/ IMAGES. PLEASE DELETE & I'LL REPOST.
2009 - "Since 1925, Jehovah's Witnesses have recognized that World War I and the events that followed amount to sure evidence that Christ's presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914" (w.09, 3/15, p.16)
Here is the often referenced article from 1925. Examine for yourself.
70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
The 70 years does NOT apply to Jerusalem and the temple. The 70 years applies to Babylon and is the length of time it would be the dominant world power. You can see this clearly in the prophecy of Jeremiah where he discusses how all the nations (plural) in that region would be dominated by Babylon:
“Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘“For the reason that YOU did not obey my words, here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ - Jeremiah 25: 8-11
Furthermore, even the Society confirms this in their own writings! --
“Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a ) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.” – Isaiah’s Prophecy I, p. 253
The bible and the secular records match. The twisting of logic and scripture originates with the Society's need to maintain this flawed chronology that was developed in the 1820's. Without 607 BCE, 1914 falls as does their 1919 date of appointment as the "faithful and discreet slave". The entire authority of the organization hangs on the thread of 607 BCE.
i went today because i wanted to hear the comments on this wt article.. it did not disappoint.
one comment that summed things up:.
"i know i can trust the slave because everything i have ever read from the slave has been for my benefit.
I went today because I wanted to hear the comments on this WT article.
It did not disappoint. One comment that summed things up:
"I know I can trust the slave because everything I have ever read from the slave has been for my benefit. I can always trust what the slave says, because I know that Jehovah and Jesus are behind the slave class."
How about your congregation?
They could also do what they have done in the past. When they longer wanted to support 1874, they just moved everything up to 1914. Then they found or created events within the history of the Society to prove the fulfillment of bible prophecy.
Now, they could eventually abandon 1914 and move everything up 20 years to 1934 to support the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE.
After listening to the comments of the loyal Witnesses today at the meeting, proclaiming their undying, unconditional support for the "Slave" and its Governing Body, I am sure they can get away with this.
New light can accomplish anything!
iv) believe that jesus christ is mediator for "the faithful and discreet slave".
today, that "slave" is represented by the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.
5. elders.
Excellent summary!
this one has an important article on the faithful steward and the governing body.
cannot find one anywhere.... .
thank you in advance!.
Ynot's point is well taken. The WT point here, and elsewhere about the GB, is the equivalent of the scribes in Jesus day quoting other dead scribes for their authority. Just because congregation procedure has been handled a certain way for a long time does not bolster any related claim, or make it more scriptural. Just like when you see them say "as this journal has pointed out for many years..." to bolster their credibility for their latest power grab.
